Beyond the Pint: Navigating Marketing and Branding in the Craft Beer World with Rachel Auty

Will Ockenden: 0:00

Now, what's a third called? Because in Australia, let me remember this, they have schooners, middies, schmiddies.

Chris Norton: 0:12

What the hell is a schmiddie?

Will Ockenden: 0:18

I know and again, that was just a cynical attempt. Charge more for the same amount, more or more for less, rather.

Rachel Auty: 0:21

It gets confusing when you go to the bar and you start ordering 'can I have two, two thirds of? And you go two, two thirds, no, two, two thirds.

Chris Norton: 0:29

So yeah, schooner is a great word.

Will Ockenden: 0:34

I can still find myself being seduced by the Mediterranean dream every time I drink Amaretti.

Rachel Auty: 0:39

And isn't that what brand's all about? Like at the end of the day, it's selling a lifestyle. It's not selling a truth.

Chris Norton: 0:45

Sell this sizzle, not the sausage. That's what you do, isn't it?

Rachel Auty: 0:49

Yeah, it's cruel and you know everyone does it in every line of work, so leave the marketers alone.

Will Ockenden: 0:56

Leave us alone.

Chris Norton: 1:04

Hi everybody, welcome to socially unacceptable the podcast for marketers, PR professionals and entrepreneurs looking to grow their brands. This is the podcast that actually celebrates the big marketing mistakes, mishaps and misfortunes. As ever, I'm your host, Chris Norton, and today I'm with my much better looking business partner, Will Ockenden, but we're joining the studio today by Rachel Auty. Rachel is a culture loving beer drinker, head of marketing at Brew York, director at Beer Writers and founder of Women on Tap, which she's going to talk about a lot about today, which is very interesting. She's also a top charted marketer and a mentor to many women working in the industry today and she has got some fascinating insights on what it's like to work in the brewing industry.

Chris Norton: 1:47

But I've known Rachel for more than 10 years. We met years and years ago, so I wanted to get her in to discuss what she's been doing, how she's been disrupting the alcohol market with some fascinating beer brands with different names. So I think you're going to find this episode really, really interesting because it's about disrupting a market that's out there. It's not just about beer. It's about clever marketing with good tips and strategies and also one big mistake that's quite interesting to talk about. So if you like beer and you like marketing. Who doesn't? Then get listening to this episode, here we go.

Vicki Murphy: 2:25

Welcome to socially unacceptable, from f**k ups to fame, the marketing podcast that celebrates the professional mishaps, mistakes and misjudgments, while delivering valuable marketing and life lessons in the time it takes you to eat your lunch.

Chris Norton: 2:42

Okay, thanks for joining us everybody. Welcome back to the socially unacceptable podcast, the show that celebrates marketing mistakes, and today we're lucky enough to have in the studio with us all the way from... w What did you say? York, Harrogate? Oh there you go, same town as me. We've got Rachel Auty from Brew York, who's here to talk all about beer and marketing in the beer sphere, and I've also got, obviously, my sidekick because he likes me to describe him that my partner in crime, my Robin to my Batman,

Will Ockenden: 3:14

And actually a note to other guests, Rachel's actually brought her own beer with her today, which massive, massive tick for that.

Chris Norton: 3:20

Thank you very much. I think you win so far. Yeah, absolutely, although drinking 7% at 11 o'clock in the morning might be a bit risky for us.

Will Ockenden: 3:27

Not a good look, is it? So why don't you start by telling us about who you are and what you do at Brew York?

Rachel Auty: 3:35

Yeah, so I basically I've worked in marketing my whole career, which is now very long. 24 years just over and in all sorts of industries, but ultimately, as I've got more experienced and more confident in the industry, I've kind of chiseled away at the places that I love to work. So I've ended up in the beer industry. I've always drunk a lot of beer and not a shamed to say it, obviously since the age of 18 plus, obviously, and it's a passion of mine. I just love it. I love the industry. I love going to festivals, meeting people. I've met a lot of great people. So I'm now head of marketing at Brew York, which was a role that I took on after doing a bit of consultancy for them previously. It's a new role, so I'm sort of making it up as I go along, if you like.

Will Ockenden: 4:24

So tell us about Brew York then. So obviously based in York. Do you want to fill in some more blanks?

Rachel Auty: 4:29

Yeah, I mean that is one of the key bits of information. So they were founded in 2016. Obviously, that was the start of kind of a massive beer evolution, so they were at the forefront of that. They had their original brewing site at the center of York on Walmgate, which is still there, but it's without grown it a long time ago. So now it's a tap room and there's a big beer hall which was actually a crowdfunding project like a Bavarian style huge hall upstairs, loads and loads of taps. So if you like craft beer, there's so much choice there. It's like a beer lovers dream. But we'd still have the original brewery site nestled in sort of a downstairs tap room. So we do brewery tours. There gets a lot of interest and tourism.

Rachel Auty: 5:20

Obviously, York's a massive tourist city so we get a lot of new people and locals. We've extended as well. We've got a bar out at Pocklington, a little market tap, which is just more like traditional pub style but full of Brew York beer on the taps. And then we have a bar in Leeds, on New Brigatte, just around the corner from North Bar, which again is full of our beers on tap. Really nice space. And then we've opened a tap room. Now we've got our state of the art brewery site out at Osboldwick, which is a tiny little village on the outskirts of York. Huge, huge brewing kit out there and head office. So that's where I work. We have all of our most of our beers now brewed there and we have a tap room that opens on a weekend, which is very much appreciated by the local community.

Chris Norton: 6:11

So the first thing to say is the packaging is incredible. Like it looks, the craft beer I mean. It is very crafty and it looks great.

Rachel Auty: 6:18

Yeah, it's very noticeable, isn't it? Yeah?

Chris Norton: 6:21

How many? How many different beers have you got? Because you've brought four in the studio today, but how many have you got?

Rachel Auty: 6:25

Ridiculous amounts of beer. So, we launched new, two new beers like every other week, and we have like our sort of we call them signature range, which is the ones we brew all the time. So we've got, I believe, about 10 in the signature range and then new releases are every other week.

Chris Norton: 6:45

And what's more popular now? Because obviously craft beer tends to be a bit stronger. We're just talking about the fact that one of them is over seven. Well, several of them are over 7%, and years ago it used to be larger and things like that used to. Before the craft beer boom, it used to be like everything was 3% to 4%, and then the exports were over 5%. What, nowadays, though, craft beer is so much stronger? What do you think is better in that space?

Rachel Auty: 7:09

It's changing again because of the duty changes recently and breweries now are pulling out sort of much lower ABV beers again because it just makes it so much more affordable for the drinker to be able to go in and buy those lower ABV beers.

Rachel Auty: 7:23

But we still pride ourselves on, we're known for our big, strong dark stouts and we get a bit experimental with them. So I've got one in my fridge that I didn't bring today because I really want to keep it for myself and it's got like chili in it. It's called Ghost Dimension and it's really interesting, like really different, and obviously it's a bit of a Marmite beer in that you'll probably either love it or absolutely hate it. But I just love this kind of like real experimental nature. But I think, with you know, with the stronger beers, obviously what they're great for is sharing, you know, whether it's just between two of you or whether it's, you know, get through friends round and a load of cheese and have a little event with some sharing beers. I wouldn't ever recommend anyone sort of down in a can of 12% impistout on their own. So you know.

Will Ockenden: 8:10

I'm quite interested in this term craft beer. So it feels like it's almost been hijacked by the massive breweries. Is it a meaningless term now? I mean, what does craft beer mean? Clearly, you are a craft brewery.

Rachel Auty: 8:21

Yes.

Will Ockenden: 8:22

But Heineken can also be a craft brewery.

Rachel Auty: 8:24

Do you know what it's such a weird phrase that means different things to different people, now. It used to be that kind of like small scale innovative. You know, you sort of think craft is like beer served on keg and it's more like lager and it's cold and it's fizzy. But it's interesting and it's just not that easy to define now, it's such a grey area and cask ale, which is obviously more traditional sort of handpull beer, that can be craft as well and I suppose craft really generally it comes from like an independent brewery. It's usually fairly small batch brewed. Although you know even some craft now that I would call craft is brewed quite large scale and is like a permanent line beer.

Rachel Auty: 9:08

But, I'd still consider it craft just because of who makes it and it's still small when you think of like your Heineken and you know. It's still small scale really.

Chris Norton: 9:16

So how do you do marketing in that space against the big boys? How do you go about? Because you said you launch to what? You got a couple of beers every month. How do you go about, like, tackling such a big competitor? How do you do that?

Rachel Auty: 9:32

It's really tough, especially because you know, at the end of the day we're still quite a small business. We have to make small budgets work hard. It's a very noisy space is craft beer. So there's a lot of breweries doing crazy wacky things and, you know, very active online social media. That's a huge platform for sort of the craft beer industry. You've got to make that work really hard. You've got to be different and I think sometimes you've got to. You've got to take risks. You've got to kind of not be too shy. I've seen the Northern Monk sort of Aunt Bessie's range again that they did the other week and it's stuff that gets people talking, as well as just great products and drinks. So you've got to really make. You've got to really make a song and dance about it and even if that's you know you just do that every so often just to get eyes back on you.

Chris Norton: 10:22

It's like a disruptor. Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Auty: 10:24

Basically.

Chris Norton: 10:26

I mean we can all think of one particular beer brand that does that regularly. Yes, there was a craft beer and is now mainstream.

Will Ockenden: 10:32

Yeah, absolutely. So come on let's get specific, I mean actually before, before I ask that question, it's worth, worth talking about the sector. If you choose any sector that's more competitive, I think hospitality and brewing must be two of the toughest sectors at the moment. Cost of living crisis, the cost of raw materials is flying through the roof, and you've obviously got limited budgets and you can't compete with the likes of Heineken or Cools or someone like that.

Will Ockenden: 10:56

So talk to us about some of that disruption, then you know what. Talk to us about some of those activations you've done that have got cut through.

Rachel Auty: 12:07

So I think one of the main things that I keep banging on about is your brand is so important, and when I talk about brand, I don't obviously mean a pretty logo. I mean, like, every interaction you have with the outside world makes a statement about who you are, what you stand for, what you believe in, and those things are really important. One of the things that really has sort of fallen to our advantage in this industry since COVID is that people are looking for local producers. They're looking for things that are made on their doorstep and they want to support local businesses and they're really passionate about their own towns and cities. So they want to spend their pounds which are, you know, getting fewer and fewer pounds with people that they care about and they want to see succeed on their doorstep. So that is an advantage for us, because we're not a faceless brewery that just makes great beer. We are a community of people that you can literally come into the space and talk to us. You know, and we're trying to do good things.

Rachel Auty: 13:05

So we've done projects this last year, I don't know if you know of the brave noise movement? Which is all around tackling discrimination in beer, and there's a global collaboration brew project where a lot of breweries... I t started in the US.

Rachel Auty: 13:20

A lot of US breweries, brewed a beer and then made a donation to a cause that champions diversity in the industry. And it's come over to the UK now and Brew York were one of the first UK breweries to actually jump on this and brew a beer. I think it was back in February, the brave noise beer and we've made a donation to a company that operate in leads called the egalitarian, and they're doing lots of training with hospitality venues to certify them as safe spaces and they're helping them train their staff on kind of like, what to look out for in terms of like, discriminatory behavior, you know, just stuff that is not okay. So it's starting to be more than just about making good beer. It's about making a statement, taking a stand and telling people outside that you know you're a good organization trying to do good in the world and change society, not just make good beer.

Chris Norton: 14:19

How many people work at Brew York? To give you some sort of feel for it.

Rachel Auty: 14:21

I believe we have about 70 now.

Chris Norton: 14:26

Okay, yeah. And how many gallons? Or how many do we go in pints? So how much do we brew?

Rachel Auty: 14:36

We get a free beer box every month for staff, so that's nice. Yeah, that's cool, but I've forgotten the numbers. But if you go in, we've basically got two massive outside tanks outside the brewery now because they're so big, they don't fit in it and they're just full of lager.

Chris Norton: 14:52

And we sell it.

Rachel Auty: 14:53

That's all you need to know.

Chris Norton: 14:55

That's our producers. That's the idea of our producers heaven just being set outside with massive with a cup. Yeah, just lager.

Will Ockenden: 15:04

And I think you know you're talking about this kind of shift towards local and artisan projects and I think nothing sums up better than a tap room, does it. When you literally go in and you look over there and it's brewed. So I can understand the appeal of the brewery. So what about the actual bars you've got? Again bars, hospitality under enormous pressure, less money to go around what are? You doing to drive footfall there?

Rachel Auty: 15:26

Well, I mean we've got a lovely community around our space in Pocklington. All of our venues are so different, they appeal in a different way and they're in different spaces, like from the city centre one, as I've already mentioned, it's huge with tourism, you know it's massive because we get a lot of visitors to York, so that's a really easy one for us in many ways. The one in Pocklington it's a little village. We have regulars that come in nearly every day because they just love it and they talk to each other and it's very much about social interaction and that feels like a really light touch effort really in terms of kind of driving that footfall. But obviously we have to maintain standards and make sure those people feel welcome and part of the community there.

Rachel Auty: 16:11

Our bar in Leeds, obviously Leeds has an amazing beer scene and we're just trying to kind of establish ourselves in that, really. We want to be part of it because Leeds is ace and with North Bar and North Brewing and Northern Monk in that space, our bars nestled kind of within that. So we're hoping to sort of be part of that really when people are visiting Leeds for the beer scene.

Chris Norton: 16:32

It's like a nice Yorkshire beer community really.

Rachel Auty: 16:34

Yeah, I think so, and that's the great thing about beer is that you know as much as it is massively competitive. Everyone's also friends, really. And no one wants to see anyone fail, so it's quite a nice space to be in at the same time.

Chris Norton: 16:47

You mentioned brand, because I listen to a lot of marketing, sort of more brandy advertising type podcasts and they talk about the fact that brand advertising and things like that are not what they were 20 years ago. You know, like you might remember the classic ads and I'm going to age myself on this podcast but, like you know, the Levi ads, right from the very first one right through to Flat Eric, which probably no one remembers either. My point is that, like you had like Frosties, you had like amazing, iconic, you know snap, crackle and pop type TV advertising. I'm not saying that you guys would be doing TV, but brand advertising is something that's lost at the moment. It's like the last 20 years we've gone to performance marketing and we've moved to like much more put money there. What happens? What's the result? Whereas brand is very, very different. What do you guys do in terms of advertising for the brand? Obviously, your venues are very much immersive in the brand, but what about advertising wise? What do you do in that space?

Rachel Auty: 17:49

So at the moment we're doing quite a few collaborations. We're working with other big brands on we call them like, our white label projects. So we've recently done a project with Moxie Hotels and what we've basically done is we've designed a label with their brand on it, an hour logo on it, and they're actually selling that beer now in can through their venues across the UK. We've done another one which is really interesting, with the Sherlock's band. I don't know if you know of the Sherlock's. They've just released a new album.

Will Ockenden: 18:18

They're from Sheffield.

Rachel Auty: 18:20

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, they're a really cool bunch of guys. It's amazing and they've got this like real sort of yellow and black kind of you know simple logo and kind of branding on their album. We've just put it on a beer label and it's a white label of a beer we already made, but it's just a great way of kind of expanding that brand and sort of reaching new people with that really. So we're doing more of that going forward.

Will Ockenden: 18:46

McKella do some weird. What's it? They did a partnership, was it with Krista Burr?

Rachel Auty: 18:51

Oh, that sounds about right.

Will Ockenden: 18:52

No, Rick Astley wasn't it. Yeah, that's weird and it just made no sense, but I mean that's McKella all over there isn't it.

Rachel Auty: 19:00

But that's the disruption element as well. Sometimes it's great to go, and well, no it makes no sense, but everyone's talking about it.

Will Ockenden: 19:05

Who are the other disruptors then? I mean, you know, beyond the UK, I mean I would say McKella one of those. I mean they do a similar thing to you. They have new releases every single week, don't they? A range of about 100 core beers or something.

Rachel Auty: 19:17

Who else kind of has?

Will Ockenden: 19:18

Who else kind of has caught your attention?

Rachel Auty: 19:19

Who else is doing disruptor stuff. I feel like the beer industry just generally. Every so often you just see something and go, oh that's clever. You know, I don't know if you saw the vocation, it was the celebration sweets. Recently they did a beer that was like the bounty and they basically took off the celebrate.

Chris Norton: 19:39

Did they remove the bounty, like every one of them?

Rachel Auty: 19:41

Oh well, maybe, maybe they've just got like a warehouse full of bounty beers somewhere in the corner.

Chris Norton: 19:47

I'm sure Mars did that as a stunt, because they got rid of the bounty and then everyone was like bring back the bounty, just like when Whisper did that campaign.

Will Ockenden: 19:53

Yeah, erm Salad Cream. Do you remember when Heinz said they're cancelling Salad Cream?

Chris Norton: 19:56

Yes, and there's a huge outcry.

Will Ockenden: 19:58

Oh okay, we'll bring it back. Great stunt, yeah. So I was listening to another podcast that you've done and there's a really good quote which I'm probably going to get wrong. But Henry Ford said stopping marketing to save money is like stopping your watch to save time. I thought that's brilliant. So I presume your management team see the value in marketing. How do you demonstrate that value? I mean, obviously you need believers in the first place, don't you?

Rachel Auty: 20:24

Yeah, I think marketing is. I was talking to someone yesterday about this. It's so tough, it's almost like the unseen, isn't it in business, but it's so important. I feel like part of my career is my job is to do the marketing, but also it's to convince people that marketing is needed all the time. Creativity.

Chris Norton: 20:41

Like it never stops. Creativity, yeah.

Rachel Auty: 20:44

Yeah, I just think. I just think you know I was reading a lot prepping for the podcast you were referring to, and you know there's a lot of talk about. You know, surely, for business all you need is like a product or a service and a sale and people kind of go, well yeah, you've got a business with that right. And you go, yeah, but what if no one knows about it or you or what you do, or you know what's your argument for being better than the next person that's doing exactly the same thing? You know, and that's where marketing comes in. And you know, marketing brings that kind of like, loyalty and that engagement that means that you retain those customers, get those repeat purchases and all of that. Like, without marketing you get none of that and it's just a one time quick fix rather than a business that's got, you know, a future of success.

Chris Norton: 21:31

I think the beer industry, above all though, as well would rely on the disruptive things good for like in terms of the space that we come from. PR stunts, things like that, that get people talking social media, but it's all down to flavor for me. Like if the beers are made incredible, like you can have one beer like said 'brand' that we were talking about earlier, that we shall not mention. Had one beer that just has just flown and sold incredibly. What's your sort of, what's your mother ship beer then? What's the one that everybody talks about?

Rachel Auty: 22:01

Juice Forsythe.

Will Ockenden: 22:03

We had a conversation about that in the office, actually just before you came in.

Rachel Auty: 22:06

Nice to see you, nice to see you.

Chris Norton: 22:08

No question, juice Forsythe.

Rachel Auty: 22:10

It is our signature signature. Everyone loves it. It's one of those that we brewed as a bit of a new release and it's just taken its own life form. You know, it's kind of just gone off and it's exploded really. So it's in a lot of supermarkets now. It's gone off to export. So it's a global beer brewed in York, which is always nice to say. The name helps, I guess, but we were talking the other day about how the reference is probably going to die out as...

Will Ockenden: 22:41

Yeh, it's quite an old reference. I was going to say.

Chris Norton: 22:44

Wait it can't have been out before. I don't know when Bruce passed away. I don't know when that was.

Will Ockenden: 22:47

You've got to be careful here, who you choose these days, haven't you?

Will Ockenden: 22:49

When you select an old school entertainer.

Rachel Auty: 22:50

Oh yes, we've had that conversation a few times as well.

Will Ockenden: 22:53

So how do you land on one of these beers? I mean, is it? You know, presumably everybody wants these kind of. I mean, we'd call them a talk trigger, wouldn't we? One of these beers has got a great name, a great brand. It tastes amazing, everyone talks about it. You must be trying to find another one of those every day.

Rachel Auty: 23:09

Yeah, I mean, you never quite know. Sometimes I think you bring a beer out and go, this is great, and then it just doesn't land, for whatever reason.

Chris Norton: 23:16

Really.

Rachel Auty: 23:16

And it can just depend on so many factors, like you know just. I guess, where it ends up going in terms of channels and sometimes the stuff that we like in the brewery team and in the brewery the public aren't as bothered about, you know, and it's really interesting. So you've got to obviously really watch your audience and listen to what they're saying. So we do look at Untapped quite a lot. I don't know if you use or have used Untapped in the past.

Chris Norton: 23:43

No, go for it. So it's an app. Will's nodding, but I'm going to go with you because he's more into craft beer than me, I like craft beer, but yeah. Is it for your craft geek?

Rachel Auty: 23:51

Yeah, and I have to be honest and say I've never really used it very much, but I've been aware of it for many, many years. But a lot of people are quite obsessed about it and I think it's just about showing your beer prowess a lot of the time. You're like a black belt if you've got Untapped, you get badges and stuff.

Rachel Auty: 24:07

You know which you know arguably isn't entirely ethical in terms of encouraging people to drink a lot, but yeah, so we do watch it. We're very interested in what people are saying, but we're also mindful that it's probably a specific type of drinker that uses Untapped religiously.

Will Ockenden: 24:24

But I suppose they're the early opinion formers, aren't they, yeah?

Rachel Auty: 24:27

Or the early adopters rather, it could be an indicator at least. Yeah, absolutely, it's definitely worth keeping an eye on.

Will Ockenden: 24:33

How do you tread this relatively fine line with one eye on the Portman Code? You know, clearly people occasionally drink beer to get intoxicated. But obviously you need to talk about flavour and so on. Do you ever find that a challenge?

Rachel Auty: 24:45

We have. I think, because our branding's like really playful and we get a bit silly. We've come a cropper before and had a few warnings and things over that. I feel like we're maturing as a business now and understanding that it's not always a good move to just kind of take that risk. So, yeah, we've had a few incidences and I think in terms of alcohol, you've just got to be yeah, you've just got to make sure you're ticking all the responsibility boxes and not kind of saying drink loads of this 12% stout on your own and have a nice time, kind of thing, because we don't want anybody really doing that.

Chris Norton: 25:24

And so before working in the beer industry. Actually let's wind it back, because you're also, when we looked at your notes, you're also the founder of Women on Tap and you're still doing that right. So explain to the listeners what that's all about.

Rachel Auty: 25:40

So Women on Tap happened way before I worked for Brew York. It came from my love of beer and my acknowledgement I guess, that not as many women were involved in the beer industry, not as many women were seen in bars perhaps, and it was at the time when craft beer was sort of really just taking off as well. So it was something that I feel like craft beers kind of helped women get more into beer and interested in beer and the industry in general. But I just thought I want to start a thing where we really celebrate women in the beer industry and spotlight women in beer and say hurrah to women that enjoy drinking beer, because there's a bit of a history in the beer industry of 'beers for men'. It's been marketed to men for a very long time.

Rachel Auty: 26:28

There's been lots of incidences of sexism that have been now called out, but people got away with it for very, very many years. Things like names on pump clips and graphics on pump clips and it's starting to get better. But obviously the hangover, if you'll excuse the phrase, is that it's taking some time to kind of really shift the industry again and make sure that everyone does feel welcome in you know what you'd call like your old men's pubs kind of thing, your traditional pubs. That's why craft beer is great, because it brings that sort of more modern, fresh tap room sort of feel to it. There are spaces that more people feel welcome there, so it's all good. But women on tap is all about celebrating women working in the beer industry and enjoying drinking beer.

Rachel Auty: 27:19

And we do serious stuff, like we have panel discussions with people that perhaps have not had great experiences, because we have to talk about these things so that we can tackle them. But also we have a great time. So we have an annual festival, mainly we get incredible women that work in the beer industry to come and host events, do talks and just really celebrate their kind of expertise. Really.

Will Ockenden: 27:45

So you're in a senior position. You're in a very senior position now in the brewing industry. So, what kind of advice or observations have you got for other women that also want to follow suit and get to a senior position in? And it's not just brewing, is it? There's lots of sectors; construction, for example traditionally male dominated. I'm sure there's a lot of listeners in perhaps male dominated sectors, so what advice would you give them? Just to put you on the spot.

Rachel Auty: 28:15

It's really tough is the main thing I'd say. I've actually just started a women in beer mentorship program. It's a pilot program and I'm one of the mentors on it and that's basically all about working with women who are perhaps a lower level in their career but in the beer industry and need a bit of support because it's tough. It is really tough, especially with craft beer. These are fast growing, still generally quite small businesses. There are a lot of male founders in that industry and it is hard because they don't have because they're fast growing, they don't have standard corporate processes, frameworks and structures in place. Most of them don't have like HR people. They just don't. So it's really really tough.

Rachel Auty: 29:00

And I just say to women that it is possible. There are women out there that are now like MDs of great breweries. There are women that are being promoted within brewing and you can see that they're going to be on leadership teams in the next few years. I think it'll change beer for the better. The more women kind of rise to these senior ranks in the brewing industry. But there are women out there doing great things already and I would just say look to them and you know they're inspiring. It is possible. Just keep chipping away and don't let anybody knock you back.

Chris Norton: 29:30

I just wanted to ask about the craft beer boom. Did it tie in exactly with the gin boom? Did they coexist at the same time or were they slightly different times? That's what I'm interested to know.

Rachel Auty: 29:43

It feels like it was a very similar time but it feels like the craft boom was faster, almost. Some of the reports I've seen on the craft beer industry and appealing to women actually refers to gin as a case study. Because gin has kind of come through this evolution of you know it crosses generations, it crosses kind of gender boundaries and you know it's become a much more inclusive drink that a lot of people will happily get on board with. You know it's this beautiful crafted thing that you can go into a great bar and order and it's expensive, you know.

Will Ockenden: 30:18

I remember gin used to get in that very small glass in a pub with a single ice cube, didn't you?

Chris Norton: 30:26

That was it. They only had two tonics Schweppes, so now there's about 47.

Will Ockenden: 30:29

Now it's 12 pounds a double with the Juniper berries, and it's that aspirational thing that you know the gin industry's just completely evolved.

Will Ockenden: 30:39

But I suppose I mean it's almost a tale of two drinks. The gin boom started and suddenly it was all right for men to be drinking great glasses of gin. But the great thing about the craft beer boom is it's absolutely, you know, it's brought craft beer to women and the stigma has seems to have gone, now. You know, women can walk into a bar. They can order one of 20 different craft beers. 20 years ago they might have been judged by some of the old school locals for doing that and that's crazy.

Chris Norton: 31:10

It's a better place we're in today.

Rachel Auty: 31:12

Oh definitely, definitely. I mean, it's about choice, isn't it? But there's a report that happened in 2018 asking women why they didn't drink beer, and a lot of people were saying that it's just the you know the fact that it's in pints, it's brown, it bloats you up, it's the taste of nothing, you know. And actually craft beer has kind of tackled that, and the big thing I'm always saying to people is doesn't just come in pints like you can have it in all different measures.

Rachel Auty: 31:38

Get a third and try it. You know you don't have to do that. You can go to a restaurant and order a nice craft beer and have it with your food, now. It isn't just about that brown liquid in pints that you know, you've got to kind of have six or seven of to prove yourself.

Will Ockenden: 31:53

Yeah, that's another thing, isn't it? The number of bars now selling schooners, rather than pints, which actually sometimes is an excuse to charge the same amount for a pint.

Chris Norton: 32:05

What's a third? I've never had a third. No, I don't think so. I just drink it all as quick as possible, sorry.

Rachel Auty: 32:09

When it comes to the strong impie stouts we were talking about earlier. A third is perfect, yeah.

Will Ockenden: 32:14

What's a third called? Because in Australia they have, let me remember this they have schooners, middies, schmiddies.

Chris Norton: 32:28

What the hell is a schmiddie? I know, and again that was just a cynical attempt to charge more for the same amount or more for less, rather.

Rachel Auty: 32:35

It gets confusing when you go at the bar and you start ordering, 'can I have two, two thirds of? And you go two, two thirds, no, two, two thirds.' So yeah, schooners a great word.

Chris Norton: 32:47

As long as the person behind the bar is not doing mathematician. I've got to figure it out. Okay, so this podcast is all about mistakes, mishaps and marketing fuckups that we've made. What would any spring to mind that have happened to you over? Because obviously you're working in beer now, but you worked in the theater industry before that and working in marketing for... when I read your LinkedIn, I know we met several years ago, but it says 24 years in marketing, which is it just goes so fast, doesn't it? Yeah, so there must have been a few mistakes over the way.

Rachel Auty: 33:16

Do you know what I was trying to think of this? And as much I feel like it's one of those things where I don't want to go 'oh no, I've never made a mistake.' But at the same time I feel like the reality is I make mistakes all the time, like still now, like I've looked after print really important pieces of print when I worked at the theater sort of ran the marketing team at the theater, we were responsible for the big guide that's got, you know, the full season of shows in and just like completely missing dates out, you know, and people ringing up going it looks great, but when is it?

Rachel Auty: 33:47

And you know, oh god, that's like the one key piece of information that you actually need in there. But yeah, I think nothing massive but lots of, lots of very small things over the years.

Rachel Auty: 34:00

And I think that it's really important to kind of say to people that work in in marketing like we're still just human and we all make mistakes and you know, sometimes I feel like people are really quick to jump on marketing when you do something wrong or there's a typo in a social media post or you know you've got a little bit of the wrong facts in, but it's cruel and you know, everyone does it in every line of work, so leave the marketers alone.

Will Ockenden: 34:25

And I suppose I mean the point is, the more mistakes you make, it shows that you're pushing yourself, doesn't? It and you're not taking any risks in this. You're not making mistakes.

Chris Norton: 34:37

I suppose you have marketing mistakes with beers though, like you said, some don't land. So you think that just the position is just not right. It goes out and it doesn't work.

Will Ockenden: 34:46

Yeah, have you ever launched a beer that you've, you guys internally have been convinced by, and it's just not landed.

Chris Norton: 34:53

Press the tumbleweed button. Yeah, we've not got it ready, have we?

Rachel Auty: 34:55

Probably, quite a lot. I mean, more so for our birthday party this year. We decided we were going to brew a series of beers. We did collaborations with, like international breweries really exciting proposition. We kind of you know, we got Lervig, we got Hidden Springs from America, who else did we get? Anyway, it was a set of six incredible international breweries and we were like, let's do a collab. You know, six beers, collab with each. And we thought we were being I mean, it was a bit genius. You know we tied into the Eurovision because we were like what's going on at the time? We're going to be releasing these Eurovision. Brilliant, it's in the UK. This is fantastic. We made these beers and we called them collabovision.

Rachel Auty: 35:42

And it was. You know, a lot of genius in there.

Chris Norton: 35:46

Too much genius.

Rachel Auty: 35:46

I feel like we got a lot more excited internally than perhaps the public did. Like there was I mean, obviously we wanted to get people talking about it, but the beers themselves were like really quite adventurous flavours, like stuff, a little bit like there was one that was a bit more sensible, it was like a stout with cherry and that was fine, but there were some that were a little bit crazy and I feel like there was just too much going on in that series. I feel like the concept was great on its own and the beers were really interesting on their own, but together I feel like some things just got a bit noisy. A bit too noisy, we tried too hard.

Chris Norton: 36:24

Too many messages. Too many messages is a big thing, they say. Try and keep it simple, don't they? Because otherwise you lose it.

Will Ockenden: 36:32

And we've all done that, haven't we? You know, when you come up with an amazing campaign, you're high-fiving in the office.

Rachel Auty: 36:40

And then, like three people go 'oh wow, these are cool.'

Will Ockenden: 36:43

So something worth talking about. Just to put you on the spot here, I'm fascinated to get your take on this. Madri, so arguably the most successful lager launch in the last three, four years, tapping into that kind of Mediterranean beer market. Turns out it's actually brewed in Tadcaster and not Madrid, which I find hilarious.

Will Ockenden: 37:02

But everybody still drinks it. Great branding on the bottle. It's got the guy drinking like a bottle of Moretti, hasn't it? You know, lovely branding. What's your take on that, then? You know why has that absolutely flown? It's now everywhere, isn't it?

Chris Norton: 37:15

Hang on a minute. Stop the podcast. Stop the podcast. Madri from Madrid is brewed in Tadcaster.

Will Ockenden: 37:24

Yeah, they bought a Madrid brewery, used them as consultants and then brewed at the Molson Coors brewery in Tadcaster. Yeah, this is why Andy's paid the bid. Yeah, that's why he's got a massive microphone for today, so he can input that.

Chris Norton: 37:41

So just to be clear, there wasn't a Madrid beer before that. I've totally bought into that. Just made up and then brewed from Tadcaster.

Will Ockenden: 37:53

So, what's your view on that? Essentially, it's complete sort of smoke and mirrors, but people swallow it.

Rachel Auty: 38:00

I think there's a lot of that. I'm not talking just about the beer industry, I'm talking about in the world. I think people need to ask more questions about things. But there's also an argument to say people don't care, always. You might go 'oh did you know it's brewed in Tadcaster?' And they'd be like 'don't care, I just like it.' I think with something like that it's about selling the lifestyle, and I think the Lager market is really interesting. It's almost like a separate kind of bubble itself. We've just rebranded our kind of signature Lagers at the moment and we've got like a light Lager and then a Pilsner. That's sort of our two. We always vowed when we started I believe before my time we would never brew a Lager. That's not what we're about. But you just have to because it's a huge market and I guess with the Madri stuff they've just tapped into that and kind of selling the lifestyle.

Will Ockenden: 38:50

And on that then, is that your take on the kind of the Mediterranean Lager sector, because, again, that's the fastest growing Lager sector, isn't it? You've got well, you've got Peroni, Moretti, San Miguel. Is that all about kind of lifestyle? People remembering their Spanish holidays.

Rachel Auty: 39:06

I think so. Yeah, it is selling that kind of like aspirational holiday kind of mood, isn't it?

Chris Norton: 39:12

Surveysa. It works really well. I swear you get Madri on holiday as well abroad. You don't? Because what they've done great with Madri is that you go to a Spanish restaurant.

Chris Norton: 39:21

Sorry that I've been completely bamboozled by this. You've blown me away, because I've been to Spanish eating restaurant, like Tapas restaurants, and they're selling Madri, because obviously it's a Spanish beer, but it's just not. I've been like, I feel like I've been lied to. As a PR person, we're all about honesty and transparency, but if we're honest, it's bullshit.

Will Ockenden: 39:43

It is bullshit. But if we're honest, human behaviour is so basic and even though we're on the inside, I can still find myself being seduced by the Mediterranean dream every time I drink it.

Rachel Auty: 39:53

And that's it. Isn't that what brand's all about? Like at the end of the day, it's selling a lifestyle. It's not selling a truth.

Chris Norton: 40:00

Sell the sizzle, not the sausage. That's what you do innit.

Will Ockenden: 40:03

So any plans to launch a Mediterranean Lager? An exclusive for our listeners.

Rachel Auty: 40:08

Not at the moment. But do you know, interestingly I know, do you know Fierce Brewery up in Edinburgh, up in Scotland? They've just had, they've done a big campaign this summer called the Summer of Surveyser and they've actually got one of their beers is. You know, that's their big focus and it is interesting that kind of craft beer is now moving more into that sort of market as well.

Will Ockenden: 40:27

So, for anyone listening in the drinks industry which I hope they will be, what are the big trends beyond craft that you're seeing? And we've already talked about Mediterranean lager, low ABV beer, presumably.

Chris Norton: 40:40

What about alcohol-free, as well? Have you got an alcohol-free one coming out?

Rachel Auty: 40:44

Yes, we have. Thank you very much for asking. Yeah, that's going to be huge. Basically, I think it's a massive, massive uptick now in terms of people are looking not necessarily to go alcohol-free, but they're looking to moderate and they want choices on the bar to be able to do that. So I think we're going to see more and more low and no alcohol beers on draught soon. I know Lucky Saint have been doing a big marketing push and getting their beer actually on the bar, because there's a big difference, isn't there, between going into a pub with a group of mates and ordering from draught. Than there is asking what's in the bottom of the fridge, that's you know, for the designated driver or whatever. We're not in that climate anymore. People want to be able to go out midweek, Sunday, whatever, and just say well, actually I'm up for going out and spending some pounds in the local tap room or pub and seeing my mates, but I don't really want to drink today.

Rachel Auty: 41:36

So they want a good quality craft alcohol-free beer and I think that's going to become really competitive.

Will Ockenden: 41:44

And is that being driven by Gen Z, or is that a wild assumption that Gen Z aren't any, well in fact let's talk to our Gen Z producer, Zak?

Zak Thompson: 41:58

I mean yes and no because I'm currently in the position that when I go out, I tend to go out with my friends with the sort of idea of it being a big night. That's currently where I'm at, because my hangovers are a minimal, so I plan on making the most of that

Chris Norton: 42:15

But do you ever, do you ever slip in a pint of alcohol-free? Or do you see your friends doing that?

Zak Thompson: 42:21

See, what's the one that caught my eye recently... T the um, the Peroni one, it's got the blue label on it. I saw the TV advert for that and I was just thought it looked incredible. But it was just pure lifestyle that is sold like the white linen shirts with the buttons open and the people drinking it on the beach.

Chris Norton: 42:40

It's probably brewed in Tadcaster, to be fair.

Zak Thompson: 42:42

Yeah, I know and I tried one and I loved it. It was great, but it's not my go-to, shall I say.

Chris Norton: 42:46

Okay, interesting insight, there you go.

Rachel Auty: 42:49

I think research is showing that the younger crew that are kind of coming up through the ranks now, are tending to go more for no alcohol. So I think, in terms of how we make the beer industry sustainable, we have to obviously watch that trend and tap into that trend. I feel like COVID also has had a big effect on people's health choices. There's a lot of research out there now showing that people because a lot of people tended to be like drink more at home during COVID for whatever reason and are now a bit more mindful of these choices and are looking for more low and no alcohol options. In terms of those, as a brewery, of course we want a piece of that market because we'd be stupid not to. So we've been selling an alcohol free for a while, but we're launching a new alcohol free which is more like a hazy neaper style beer, but it's like 0.5 and it's going to be a really tasty option I think.

Chris Norton: 43:44

I t's difficult alcohol free, because I heard an interview with the founder of Lucky Saint and he said, like people were going, he said they knew they'd got it right on draught when people were going to... T he Lucky Saints HQ is a pub, and the bar staff reported that there was a group of lads in and there was four of them and they've been drinking since two o'clock or something and they were each going to the bar and they were going three pints of blah blah, blah blah and a pint of Lucky Saint please. And he said what they didn't realise is each one of them thought they were being really clever by getting themselves a pint of Lucky Saint so they could not get too drunk, but every single one of them was doing it and he said it was then that we knew that we've tapped into something here.

Chris Norton: 44:28

Because, you're right exactly. It's no longer frowned upon and it feels a bit more acceptable, because he was saying that you go to the pub and you have to go. You're out with four or five friends and they all get a drink and then you go. I'll have a diet coke please or you know I'll have a lemonade.

Will Ockenden: 44:44

What was that one? Was it Michelob Ultra or something? That was the only. There used to be one option for an alcohol free beer, and now you're going to the supermarket and there must be 10 or 15 different options.

Chris Norton: 44:54

The whole range yeah.

Will Ockenden: 44:55

And the taste. They taste so much better.

Chris Norton: 44:56

It's all about taste, though, isn't it? Yeah, and because people tend to think is it like? Is it like you know that coke zero, it's like beer zero, is it missing something?

Rachel Auty: 45:07

Yeah, I think that we're only just really getting to the point now where alcohol free beer is genuinely really good tasting. You know, I got one the other week at my local tap room. It was a bit of an experimental one and I held it up and it just it was like hazy and it looked juicy and it just looked like the beer that I would drink normally. But it was alcohol free and I was like this is great that this is happening now.

Will Ockenden: 45:31

Interesting. So we've talked about a lot of issues and I think it's a big topic that we're all very interested in, which helps. So back to back to this idea that you're in a tough sector and you know you've got limited budgets. Let's be honest, what advice would you give to other marketers then? Or what pieces of advice would you give to other marketers who might be in completely different sectors but they've got limited budgets and it's super competitive?

Rachel Auty: 45:58

Tough one.

Chris Norton: 46:01

Hire an excellent PR company.

Rachel Auty: 46:03

Obviously. I think that collaboration is really key, like really looking around who you're. Look outside of your own industry for good collaborations as well, where there might be some interesting crossovers in terms of audience, customer you know customer segments, there's huge potential for people like us in terms of collaborations. We can reach entirely new chunks of audiences through doing that sort of thing and it can be really low cost as well, because if everyone's getting something from it, then you know, monetary wise it is low cost, but impact wise it's high on both sides. So I think, really look around for who those collaborations may be. That could be useful.

Rachel Auty: 46:47

We do use social media a lot, as you know. A lot of people do, and it's not always suitable depending on your industry, but for us it's huge because it's just so accessible and we do paid ads as well, as you know, organic content on there. But yeah, you've got to. Again, I always say you know social media is not easy to make work. It's not easy to have an impact. You've got to be really smart with it, because everyone's on there and I think I saw it said in my talk recently. You know, even dogs are on social media. How can you cut through that noise, unless you're really good at it.

Will Ockenden: 47:19

How can you compete with a cute dog? Exactly.

Rachel Auty: 47:22

That's one of my biggest challenges in life.

Rachel Auty: 47:24

That's generally one of my biggest challenges in life.

Chris Norton: 47:28

So, if you know how to compete against a dog online write to sociallyunacceptablecouk.

Will Ockenden: 47:34

And just briefly talk to us about social, then. So you know, do you, what your objectives on social is about? Building the brand, is it about directly selling products?

Rachel Auty: 47:43

It's both really. We use it for both. We have a web shop so we push our new releases, but we we're using TikTok more and more. People love the kind of behind the scenes bits of you know, little snippets of the canning line, you know things we take for granted, I guess, but people love it. They want to see how it all works, because you never get to see that side of brewery and it is fascinating. You know we've got these massive, expensive, shiny machines that do wonderful things and end up making the beer that then ends up in your hand in the supermarket, and they love that kind of thing. So we're doing more and more of that.

Will Ockenden: 48:17

I suppose that legitimizes the whole kind of craft local artisan's angle, doesn't it? It's not just a mass produced product. There's real people in a real brewery making it. Interesting, really interesting.

Chris Norton: 48:31

If anyone wants to get hold of you, where can they find you or what should they check out?

Rachel Auty: 48:36

I'm on LinkedIn. My LinkedIn profile is MarketerRach, and which is the same on X now not Twitter, the artist formerly known as Twitter and Instagram. So I'm on there and I'm more than happy to talk to anybody about anything. I'm huge about helping other marketing people and women working in male dominated industries and all that kind of thing. It's right up my street, so do drop me a line if that sounds like you.

Will Ockenden: 49:03

As the clock hits five o'clock and I fancy a beer, where can I go and buy a pint of a Brew York beer?

Rachel Auty: 49:10

Well, depending on where you are. But go to our bar in Leeds. It is Brew York, New Brigatte, round the corner from North Bar. We've got loads of fresh beer pouring all the time.

Will Ockenden: 49:22

And have you got a webshop you want to talk about?

Rachel Auty: 49:24

We do. It's on our website, brew. york. co. uk, and we put all of our new releases on there, as well as the much sought after juice forsyth.

Chris Norton: 49:33

Nice to see you, thanks very much.

Will Ockenden: 49:41

So I can see you've opened a beer already there, Chris, and you're pretty much halfway through it.

Chris Norton: 49:45

Yeah, but that's because I'm fully acceptable of everything and because this podcast is called socially unacceptable. It's fine to open a beer at 11am. This is socially unacceptable. That is the name of the show. So to you, William, hopefully my wife's not watching this.

Will Ockenden: 50:01

Except it's 9am, isn't it? It's not 11am, but anyway, what did you make of that podcast?

Chris Norton: 50:06

Brilliant, really interesting. I mean, the guys enjoyed it as well. I think everybody was engaged in the room here because we were talking about beer and let's face it, we've all got a different take on what we like, what we don't like, and I think a lot of what she said was really, really interesting in terms of getting involved and how to be a disruptor in the market, because the budgets of the brands that are the big the Heineken's, the Punk IPA, I said their name. Another big brands that are massive. They've got massive, massive budgets, but some of them are still disruptive, and I thought that was the interesting bit for me. What about you?

Will Ockenden: 50:40

Yeah, that was my takeaway. I mean she's in a super competitive sector brewing and hospitality and really it's about the three things I took away from it. Purpose, first of all, they're finding their purpose and they stand for something. Disruption and really doubling down on the brand as well. They've got a brand that people really love and really engage with.

Chris Norton: 50:59

Well, I mean just looking at the cans and for all our listeners on Spotify sorry, you'll have to go on YouTube, but the cans look amazing. I mean the design of everything. It's very, very crafty. Here's my glamorous assistant showing it. He won't open it, by the way, because it's too early in the day. He hates the fact that I've said that, but I think they've got a great brand. It looks great and craft beer is really. It's appealing to a lot of people. Some people don't like craft beer, though. You're a big fan, aren't you?

Will Ockenden: 51:27

Yeah, I mean. Yeah, I am a big fan.

Chris Norton: 51:32

Are you a big fan?

Will Ockenden: 51:35

Some people don't like it, but I think the flavour profiles now it's really kind of opening up craft beer to a much bigger audience. Like we said in the podcast, 20 years ago you just wouldn't get lots of women feeling comfortable sometimes or wanting to drink beer in a bar. But now that's completely changed and we've got smaller servings, we've got more interesting flavour profiles.

Chris Norton: 51:58

And bars are a nicer place to be, now. I can't remember when the smoking ban happened and everybody kicked off at the smoking, but let's be honest, the bars are more family friendly. There's no smoking in them, and the fact that it should be an inclusive environment that people can go in and drink whatever they bloody want, despite the fact, neither of us knew what our third was. What was the other one that you referenced?

Will Ockenden: 52:19

A schmidy?

Chris Norton: 52:21

Can I have a schmidy please.

Will Ockenden: 52:23

It goes so a pint is a pot. A schooner is two thirds, a midi is a half and I think a schmidy is between a schooner and a half.

Chris Norton: 52:36

So it's like a third, a schmidy?

Will Ockenden: 52:38

I don't know. It's just some excuse to basically charge the same as a pint and give people less beer. Anyway, you don't get that in the UK.

Chris Norton: 52:45

Imagine if you were in Ibiza and you were with P Diddy and you said can I have a schmidy for P Diddy? Fucking hell, can you tell. Anyway...

Will Ockenden: 52:56

A nd final point, it's always great to talk to marketers that are doing something beyond their actual job, and Rachel's clearly campaigning for female entrepreneurship. She's starting mentoring programmes about people that want to enter the industry, so more power to her. I say yeah, it's brilliant.

Chris Norton: 53:11

Anything that encourages women to be in a senior position in different spaces is great. So I mean, yeah, and the whole industry of beer is in a really interesting place. I love the fact that the UK population is cynical as we are. Sorry if you're out there and you're not cynical, but most of us are cynical but the fact that we all now are starting to buy local. I think that's great, whether it's local butcher, baker, candlestick maker, but local brewer as well.

Will Ockenden: 53:38

I do buy my candles locally.

Chris Norton: 53:39

So yeah, where do you buy them from, Neom?

Will Ockenden: 53:42

My local candle maker in Wetherby.

Chris Norton: 53:44

Oh yeah, what's he called?

Will Ockenden: 53:48

John Wick Candles.

Chris Norton: 53:50

Does he kick your ass as you leave the store?

Will Ockenden: 53:53

Right anyway, let's wrap this up.

Chris Norton: 53:55

This is fucking brilliant, this is gold this, we should keep going.

Chris Norton: 54:04

Thank you. Thank you. Well, fascinating episode this week. Thanks to Rachel for coming into the show. Just to remind everybody, if you did enjoy today's topic, please remember to subscribe to us on. You can find where to subscribe on social, you can find. Sorry, fucking hell, I've totally lost it, so don't forget you can find us at sociallyunacceptable. co. uk and subscribe to us on YouTube because you can get every video straight to your inbox with little notification. And yeah, keep fucking up and we'll see you in the next episode. Later, bye.

Vicki Murphy: 54:47

Thank you for listening to socially unacceptable. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast and leave us a five-star review. Don't forget to follow us on social media, on Twitter and Instagram at ProhibitionPR, we would love to hear some of your career fuck-ups so we can share them on the show. For more information on the show, search ProhibitionPR in your search engine and click on podcasts. Until next time, please keep pushing the boundaries and embracing the socially unacceptable.